Path: vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!w-hsu From: w-hsu@ai.uiuc.edu (William Hsu) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Cirdan's Beard Date: 2 Dec 1996 08:59:46 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana Lines: 56 Message-ID: <57u5q2$f7n@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> References: <32938530.2CF9@venus.net> <19961122203600.PAA07056@ladder01.news.aol.com> <32974069.3E81@concentric.net> <57cdgv$pg_002@thepope.basis.com> <329A2855.37A2@concentric.net> <329F4D93.6B8F@concentric.net> <32A06B41.5609@concentric.net> <32A085DC.4CB9@ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tubman.ai.uiuc.edu X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #7 (NOV) michaelm@swcp.com (Michael Martinez) writes: >On 11/30/96 12:07PM, in message <32A085DC.4CB9@ix.netcom.com>, Kevin Grinberg > wrote: >> BTW, there are rival houses. The House of Feanor challenged Fingolfin's >> right to be High King of the Noldor in Middle-earth, as is shown by their >> disdain towards that house, especially in the situation with Nargothrond. >This is strictly interpretative. Tolkien never indicated that the House of Feanor >challenged the High Kings. In THE SILMARILLION the High Kingship was held by >Turgon at the time Celegorm and Curufin tried to seize control of Nargothrond. I thought it was Fingon; Beren's journey to Nargothrond and Quest for the Simaril occured between the Dagor Bragollach (fourth) and Dagor Nirnaeth Arnoediad (fifth), IIRC. Fingon was slain at the culmination of the NA, and Hithlum was intact at the time that Finrod abdicated. >Even if one of them had become King of Nargothrond, he would not have become High >King of the Noldor-in-Exile. True, and I always thought that the disdain was specifically for Finarfin's house. In that vein, Galadriel didn't seem particularly close to any of her elder cousins; it is said that Finrod, Angrod, and Aegnor were very close to Fingon and Turgon --- the relationship between the first and last being very noteworthy because of Nargothrond and Gondolin. The only other close bonds were between Aredhel and some of Feanor's sons, and between Maedhros and Fingon --- it's pretty clear that this closeness was not transitive. All the other cousins seemed pretty cool towards each other. In any case, the brothers did not know that Finarfin had inherited the kingship of the Noldor in Aman (even if they might have guessed it) and would certainly not have recognized Finrod (heir of a ``cadet branch'' at best in their eyes). Their remark to their cousin was, as I remember, that ``he was not as a Vala to command them'' --- no specific challenge regarding right of inheritance. I still want to know what Caranthir said to Felagund's people to turn them into guerilla fighters for 30+ years... -Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ | "I have the most ill-regulated memory. It William H. Hsu | does those things which it ought not to do Formerly hsu@cs.jhu.edu | and leaves undone the things it ought to Now bhsu@cs.uiuc.edu | have done. But it has not yet gone on Department of Computer Science | strike altogether." University of Illinois at U-C | | -Dorothy L. Sayers, /Gaudy Night/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> Visit the ANN-CBT Home Page at http://www-kbs.ai.uiuc.edu/ANN-CBT <<< ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> See also the KBS Group Home Page at http://www-kbs.ai.uiuc.edu <<<<< ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Path: vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.pbi.net!ns2.mainstreet.net!sloth.swcp.com!usenet From: michaelm@swcp.com (Michael Martinez) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Cirdan's Beard Date: Tue, 03 Dec 96 04:03:11 GMT Organization: Southwest Cyberport Lines: 39 Message-ID: References: <32938530.2CF9@venus.net> <19961122203600.PAA07056@ladder01.news.aol.com> <32974069.3E81@concentric.net> <57cdgv$pg_002@thepope.basis.com> <329A2855.37A2@concentric.net> <329F4D93.6B8F@concentric.net> <32A06B41.5609@concentric.net> <32A085DC.4CB9@ix.netcom.com> <57u5q2$f7n@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm5-04.swcp.com X-Newsreader: Quarterdeck Message Center [2.00] On 12/2/96 1:59AM, in message <57u5q2$f7n@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, William Hsu wrote: > I thought it was Fingon; Beren's journey to Nargothrond and Quest for > the Simaril occured between the Dagor Bragollach (fourth) and Dagor Nirnaeth > Arnoediad (fifth), IIRC. Fingon was slain at the culmination of the NA, > and Hithlum was intact at the time that Finrod abdicated. You're right. For some reason I had Turgon on the brain when I wrote that he was High King. Maybe all the interest in Glorfindel and Gondolin was distracting me. > >Even if one of them had become King of Nargothrond, he would not have become > >High King of the Noldor-in-Exile. > > True, and I always thought that the disdain was specifically for > Finarfin's house. In that vein, Galadriel didn't seem particularly close to > any of her elder cousins; it is said that Finrod, Angrod, and Aegnor were > very close to Fingon and Turgon --- the relationship between the first and > last being very noteworthy because of Nargothrond and Gondolin. In the debate in Tirion, Fingolfin and Turgon spoke against Feanor, and Finrod sided with them. Finarfin tried to calm the Noldor. Galadriel, Fingon, Angrod, and Aegnor wanted nothing to do with Feanor but wanted to return to Middle-earth. But they chose not to speak against their fathers. > I still want to know what Caranthir said to Felagund's people to > turn them into guerilla fighters for 30+ years... The reference escapes me. Where does it say that Caranthir spoke to Felagund's people? I don't remember him having anything to do with them at all. Unless you mean at the very beginning of the First Age of the Sun, when he spoke against Angrod's acting on his own as a messenger to/from Thingol? -- ++ ++ "Well Samwise: What do you think of the elves now?" ||\ /|| --fbaggins@mid.earth.com || v ||ichael Martinez (mmartin@basis.com) ++ ++------------------------------------------------------ Path: vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!news.he.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!news-master!news From: Jim Gregors Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Cirdan's Beard Date: Wed, 04 Dec 1996 00:27:39 -0500 Organization: Concentric Internet Services Lines: 11 Message-ID: <32A50BCB.5589@concentric.net> References: <32938530.2CF9@venus.net> <19961122203600.PAA07056@ladder01.news.aol.com> <32974069.3E81@concentric.net> <57cdgv$pg_002@thepope.basis.com> <329A2855.37A2@concentric.net> <329F4D93.6B8F@concentric.net> <32A06B41.5609@concentric.net> <32A085DC.4CB9@ix.netcom.com> <57u5q2$f7n@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: cnc109032.concentric.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win95; U) Michael Martinez wrote: > > The reference escapes me. Where does it say that Caranthir spoke to Felagund's > people? I don't remember him having anything to do with them at all. Unless you > mean at the very beginning of the First Age of the Sun, when he spoke against > Angrod's acting on his own as a messenger to/from Thingol? > Perhaps he was refering to Celegorm's speech in Nargothrond Jim G. Path: vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!newspump.sol.net!news.mindspring.com!usenet From: j4435@mindspring.com (John Lively) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Cirdan's Beard Date: Wed, 04 Dec 1996 23:54:32 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises, Inc. Lines: 27 Message-ID: <5852o4$nr9@camel1.mindspring.com> References: <32938530.2CF9@venus.net> <19961122203600.PAA07056@ladder01.news.aol.com> <32974069.3E81@concentric.net> <57cdgv$pg_002@thepope.basis.com> <329A2855.37A2@concentric.net> <329F4D93.6B8F@concentric.net> <32A06B41.5609@concentric.net> <32A085DC.4CB9@ix.netcom.com> <57u5q2$f7n@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~Reply-To: j4435@mindspring.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ip105.garden-city2.ny.interramp.com X-Server-Date: 4 Dec 1996 23:50:28 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 michaelm@swcp.com (Michael Martinez) wrote: >On 12/2/96 1:59AM, in message <57u5q2$f7n@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, William Hsu > wrote: >> I still want to know what Caranthir said to Felagund's people to >> turn them into guerilla fighters for 30+ years... >The reference escapes me. Where does it say that Caranthir spoke to Felagund's >people? I don't remember him having anything to do with them at all. Unless you >mean at the very beginning of the First Age of the Sun, when he spoke against >Angrod's acting on his own as a messenger to/from Thingol? I believe he's referring to the passage in the tale of Luthien and Beren where Finrod fails to convince his people to support him in aiding Beren, and casts away his crown. However, it was not Caranthir but Curufin who set a fear in the hearts of Nargothrond's Elves such "that never after until the time of Turin would any Elf of that realm go into open battle; but with stealth and ambush, with wizardry and venomed dart, they pursued all strangers, forgetting the bonds of kinship. Thus they fell from the valour and freedom of the Elves of old, and their land was darkened." Cordially, John Path: vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!w-hsu From: w-hsu@ai.uiuc.edu (William Hsu) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Cirdan's Beard Date: 8 Dec 1996 01:09:20 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana Lines: 67 Message-ID: <58d4g0$d3e@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> References: <32938530.2CF9@venus.net> <19961122203600.PAA07056@ladder01.news.aol.com> <32974069.3E81@concentric.net> <57cdgv$pg_002@thepope.basis.com> <329A2855.37A2@concentric.net> <329F4D93.6B8F@concentric.net> <32A06B41.5609@concentric.net> <32A085DC.4CB9@ix.netcom.com> <57u5q2$f7n@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> On 12/2/96 1:59AM, in message <57u5q2$f7n@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, William Hsu > wrote: >> I thought it was Fingon; Beren's journey to Nargothrond and Quest for >> the Simaril occured between the Dagor Bragollach (fourth) and Dagor Nirnaeth >> Arnoediad (fifth), IIRC. Fingon was slain at the culmination of the NA, >> and Hithlum was intact at the time that Finrod abdicated. >You're right. For some reason I had Turgon on the brain when I wrote that he was >High King. Maybe all the interest in Glorfindel and Gondolin was distracting me. ... >> I still want to know what Caranthir said to Felagund's people to >> turn them into guerilla fighters for 30+ years... >The reference escapes me. Where does it say that Caranthir spoke to Felagund's >people? I don't remember him having anything to do with them at all. Unless you >mean at the very beginning of the First Age of the Sun, when he spoke against >Angrod's acting on his own as a messenger to/from Thingol? 'Twas my turn to misremember; I was thinking of Curufin, father of Celebrimbor: ``And after Celegorm Curufin spoke, more softly but with no less power, conjuring in the minds of the Elves a vision of war and the ruin of Nargothrond. So great a fear did he set in their hearts that never after until the time of Turin would any Elf of that realm go into open battle; but with stealth and ambush, with wizardry and venomed dart. they pursued all strangers, forgetting the bonds of kinship. Thus they fell from the valour and the freedom of the Elves of old, and their land was darkened.'' Chapter 19, ``Of Beren and Luthien'' /The Silmarillion/ This sounds a lot like the sylvan elves of Greenwood/Mirkwood under Thranduil, even though they were mostly descended from the Laiquendi of Ossiriand and not the Noldor, IIRC. To continue the Vietnam/Latin America analogy, note that the guerilla mentality persisted even after the ousting of Celegorm and Curufin, which the Nargothrondrim initiated with great alacrity once the ``POW's'' came back from Tol-in-Gaurhoth and reported the deeds of Luthien and Finrod. And they didn't just keep it up for a couple of years, but all the way up to the Dagor Nirnaeth Arneodiad (Gwindor and his entourage were the only Nargothrondrim who went, it seems) and for about 10-15 years thereafter (until Turin had grown up and spent his time as an outlaw)! That thar's some speech... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ | "I have the most ill-regulated memory. It William H. Hsu | does those things which it ought not to do Formerly hsu@cs.jhu.edu | and leaves undone the things it ought to Now bhsu@cs.uiuc.edu | have done. But it has not yet gone on Department of Computer Science | strike altogether." University of Illinois at U-C | | -Dorothy L. Sayers, /Gaudy Night/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> Visit the ANN-CBT Home Page at http://www-kbs.ai.uiuc.edu/ANN-CBT <<< ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> See also the KBS Group Home Page at http://www-kbs.ai.uiuc.edu <<<<< ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Path: vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!w-hsu From: w-hsu@ai.uiuc.edu (William Hsu) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Michael's Beard Date: 8 Dec 1996 03:12:25 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana Lines: 55 Message-ID: <58dbmp$ht8@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> References: <32938530.2CF9@venus.net> <19961122203600.PAA07056@ladder01.news.aol.com> <32974069.3E81@concentric.net> <57cdgv$pg_002@thepope.basis.com> <329A2855.37A2@concentric.net> <329F4D93.6B8F@concentric.net> <32a48192.4781858@news.vistec.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tubman.ai.uiuc.edu X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #7 (NOV) michaelm@swcp.com (Michael Martinez) writes: >On 12/3/96 1:22PM, in message <32a48192.4781858@news.vistec.net>, Lalaith > wrote: >> michaelm@swcp.com (Michael Martinez) wrote: >> >> >My obsession with turning Lalaith from the Dark Side of the Force has left me >> >little time to think of anything else, I fear. >> >> Tsk, tsk - wrong universe, sorry! Out here, you could only turn me >> from pursuing "the same ruinous path down into the Void". >So you ADMIT YOU'VE BEEN WRONG ALL ALONG! >BWAHAHAHAHAhahahahahah! >He admits it! He admits! >Hahahahahahahahahah! ``And after the great Black Numenorean Thread was ended and the Endless Mouth Debate overthrown, Lalaith put on his fair hue again and did obeisance to Martinez, and abjured his evil deeds. And some hold that this was not at first [1] falsely done, but that Lalaith in truth repented, if only out of fear, being dismayed by the ire of the newsgroup readers and the great wrath of the Tolkien dogmatists. But it was not within the power of Martinez to pardon those of his own order, and he commanded Lalaith to return to USENET and there receive judgement...'' You know how that story ends... ;-) [1] Beavis: Hunnnnnh, huh huh... you said ``_first_''. (D'Oh!) -Bill The indiscriminate user of SLANG! (*Gasp*) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ | "I have the most ill-regulated memory. It William H. Hsu | does those things which it ought not to do Formerly hsu@cs.jhu.edu | and leaves undone the things it ought to Now bhsu@cs.uiuc.edu | have done. But it has not yet gone on Department of Computer Science | strike altogether." University of Illinois at U-C | | -Dorothy L. Sayers, /Gaudy Night/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> Visit the ANN-CBT Home Page at http://www-kbs.ai.uiuc.edu/ANN-CBT <<< ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> See also the KBS Group Home Page at http://www-kbs.ai.uiuc.edu <<<<< ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Path: vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.pbi.net!ns2.mainstreet.net!sloth.swcp.com!usenet From: michaelm@swcp.com (Michael Martinez) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Michael's Beard Date: Wed, 11 Dec 96 05:20:50 GMT Organization: Southwest Cyberport Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <32938530.2CF9@venus.net> <19961122203600.PAA07056@ladder01.news.aol.com> <32974069.3E81@concentric.net> <57cdgv$pg_002@thepope.basis.com> <329A2855.37A2@concentric.net> <329F4D93.6B8F@concentric.net> <32a48192.4781858@news.vistec.net> <58dbmp$ht8@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm5-17.swcp.com X-Newsreader: Quarterdeck Message Center [2.00] On 12/7/96 8:12PM, in message <58dbmp$ht8@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, William Hsu wrote: > ``And after the great Black Numenorean Thread was ended and the > Endless Mouth Debate overthrown, Lalaith put on his fair hue again and did > obeisance to Martinez, and abjured his evil deeds. And some hold that this > was not at first [1] falsely done, but that Lalaith in truth repented, if > only out of fear, being dismayed by the ire of the newsgroup readers and > the great wrath of the Tolkien dogmatists. But it was not within the power > of Martinez to pardon those of his own order, and he commanded Lalaith to > return to USENET and there receive judgement...'' Golly. I'm speechless. But I laughed a lot, I did. :) "and he commanded Lalaith to return USENET and there receive judgement...." Hehehe! -- ++ ++ "Well Samwise: What do you think of the elves now?" ||\ /|| --fbaggins@mid.earth.com || v ||ichael Martinez (mmartin@basis.com) ++ ++------------------------------------------------------ Path: vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!w-hsu From: w-hsu@ai.uiuc.edu (William Hsu) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Fleshly Forms Date: 13 Dec 1996 21:30:13 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana Lines: 105 Message-ID: <58sht5$gee@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> References: <01bbe7c3$f28a27c0$b86b0398@ME.duke.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tubman.ai.uiuc.edu X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #7 (NOV) michaelm@swcp.com (Michael Martinez) writes: >On 12/11/96 5:36PM, in message <01bbe7c3$f28a27c0$b86b0398@ME.duke.edu>, >"Laurelin" wrote: ... >Saruman's loss of body occurred when he was filled with hobbit arrows, >certainly an event he wasn't anticipating. Hobbit arrows? That was Wormtongue --- Saruman had his throat cut from behind when Grima jumped him. He may not have been anticipating his lackey's sudden revolt, but I sometimes wonder how he couldn't manage to forsake his body before its forcible destruction (cf. Sauron vs. Huan). >Gandalf died out of "exhaustion", perhaps due to wounds. Certainly no human >could have endured what he did in his battle with the Moria Balrog. I always took the ``I threw down my enemy, and his fall broke the mountain'' literally, i.e., Gandalf was toppled from the pinnacle of the Winding Stair of Moria when the Balrog crashed into its foundations. >However, where the Istari were concerned, their bodies were "special". They >didn't just clothe themselves with bodies, they clothed themselves with >"human" bodies. There are only two or three precedents for this type of >biological "raiment": > 1) Melian assumed the form of an Elf so she could bear > a child (Luthien) to Thingol. > 2) Sauron took the form of a wolf in order to fight with > Huan, and he was nearly killed (in fact, in one place > Tolkien says Wolf-Sauron's body was slain, but this > is not consistent with what we are told in "Lay of > Leithian" or THE SILMARILLION). > 3) Shelob took the form of a great spider. Of course, > some people question whether she was in fact an Aina. Ungoliant almost certainly was; Shelob probably was not (``last child of Ungoliant to trouble the unhappy world'', she was probably sired by one of the generic spiders that Ungoliante ``mated with and devoured'' in Nan Dungortheb). >A Balrog's body, or the bodies of Thuringwethil or other Ainur who served >Morgoth, may not have been "biological" and so not susceptible to the >frailities of such bodies. True. What actually happened to Thuringwethil? >So, Gandalf's death was perhaps inevitible. For whatever reason, he felt it >necessary to maintain his human form during the battle, and it simply reached >a point where it could no longer function. His spirit therefore left it. >Sauron's third loss of body was due to the loss of the power he had invested >in the One Ring. He no longer had the will to hold his "body" together. >The deaths of the Balrogs imply that enough violence could be brought to bear >on an Aina to force its spirit from its body, and this perhaps ruptured the >will so greatly that it could not focus enough to form a new body. Sauron >seems to have been, in his original strength, greater than Balrogs. At the >very least he repaired himself in the First Age and formed a new body after >the Downfall of Numenor and another body in the Third Age. No Balrog is said >to have done this. And if any Balrog could, we'd expect Gothmog, High Captain of Angband, to have done so. >Morgoth so dissipated his innate strength he was unable t shed his "body" at >the end of the First Age. But Tolkien decided that he was bound by Manwe and >Mandos in such a way that he could not muster enough will to escape the fate >they had set for him, where they took him outside of Arda and executed him -- >enacting enough violence upon his body to rupture his will and so weaken him >that he could not reform for many ages. >As was pointed out to me previously, the story of Morgoth's execution is >provided in MORGOTH'S RING, in "Myths Transformed". I had a copy of /MR/ but had to return it --- could someone kindly quote the relevant passage? (/MR/ is /HoME/ Volume 10, right?) >> I've a limited background in HoME and the Unfinished Tales, perhaps the >> answer (or some helpful information) could be found there? >There is no concise, definitive explanation. There may be something buried in >MORGOTH'S RING but I don't have time to look it up tonight. I do recall >posting something about Sauron's body in the Great Debate with Lalaith. That >section was also in "Myths Transformed", and in fact was in the same essay as >the one describing Morgoth's execution. -Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ | "I have the most ill-regulated memory. It William H. Hsu | does those things which it ought not to do Formerly hsu@cs.jhu.edu | and leaves undone the things it ought to Now bhsu@cs.uiuc.edu | have done. But it has not yet gone on Department of Computer Science | strike altogether." University of Illinois at U-C | | -Dorothy L. Sayers, /Gaudy Night/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> Visit the ANN-CBT Home Page at http://www-kbs.ai.uiuc.edu/ANN-CBT <<< ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> See also the KBS Group Home Page at http://www-kbs.ai.uiuc.edu <<<<< ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Path: vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.pbi.net!ns2.mainstreet.net!sloth.swcp.com!thepope From: michaelm@basis.com (Michael Martinez) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Fleshly Forms Date: Sat, 14 Dec 96 00:09:13 GMT Organization: BASIS International Ltd. Lines: 61 Message-ID: <58sr79$190_006@thepope.basis.com> References: <01bbe7c3$f28a27c0$b86b0398@ME.duke.edu> <58sht5$gee@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: basis.basis.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.0 Beta #2 In article <58sht5$gee@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, w-hsu@ai.uiuc.edu (William Hsu) wrote: >michaelm@swcp.com (Michael Martinez) writes: > >>On 12/11/96 5:36PM, in message <01bbe7c3$f28a27c0$b86b0398@ME.duke.edu>, >>"Laurelin" wrote: > >.... > >>Saruman's loss of body occurred when he was filled with hobbit arrows, >>certainly an event he wasn't anticipating. > > Hobbit arrows? That was Wormtongue --- Saruman had his throat cut >from behind when Grima jumped him. He may not have been anticipating his >lackey's sudden revolt, but I sometimes wonder how he couldn't manage to >forsake his body before its forcible destruction (cf. Sauron vs. Huan). You're right. But I offer the excuse that it was late at night and I was still a bit woozy from the flu when I wrote that. :) >>Gandalf died out of "exhaustion", perhaps due to wounds. Certainly no human >>could have endured what he did in his battle with the Moria Balrog. > > I always took the ``I threw down my enemy, and his fall broke the >mountain'' literally, i.e., Gandalf was toppled from the pinnacle of the >Winding Stair of Moria when the Balrog crashed into its foundations. I don't believe the passage says that he toppled from the peak. I don't have my books with me to check, though. >> 3) Shelob took the form of a great spider. Of course, >> some people question whether she was in fact an Aina. > > Ungoliant almost certainly was; Shelob probably was not (``last >child of Ungoliant to trouble the unhappy world'', she was probably sired >by one of the generic spiders that Ungoliante ``mated with and devoured'' >in Nan Dungortheb). Shelob was intended to be Ungoliant. Like I said, I was still a bit woozy. That's how I managed to equate Denethor with Theoden. >>A Balrog's body, or the bodies of Thuringwethil or other Ainur who served >>Morgoth, may not have been "biological" and so not susceptible to the >>frailities of such bodies. > > True. What actually happened to Thuringwethil? I have no idea. And today I'm clear-headed enough to realize that. :) ++ ++ "Well Samwise: What do you think of the elves now?" ||\ /|| --fbaggins@mid.earth.com || v ||ichael Martinez (mmartin@basis.com) ++ ++------------------------------------------------------ Path: vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-hub.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!metro.atlanta.com!news.he.net!viper.inow.com!news1.aplatform.com!ns2.mainstreet.net!sloth.swcp.com!thepope From: michaelm@basis.com (Michael Martinez) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Sauron and the Black Cats Date: Tue, 17 Dec 96 15:23:57 GMT Organization: BASIS International Ltd. Lines: 20 Message-ID: <596dud$198_004@thepope.basis.com> References: <32b3e35e.3478887@news.vistec.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: basis.basis.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.0 Beta #2 Xref: vixen.cso.uiuc.edu alt.fan.tolkien:38021 rec.arts.books.tolkien:40317 In article , coren@spdcc.com (Robert S. Coren) wrote: >This is interesting, not only because it's actually a pretty strong >statement about his feelings towards (at least Siamese) cats, but >because of the first quoted sentence (I assume the comment in question >is "What fools these mortals be!"). It suggests that he might have had >an opinion about people assuming _noms de plume_ taken from characters >in his writings. (Never mind naming their computers after them.) :-) Well, I guess I'm safe in THAT department. I just hope John Paul II doesn't have a hissy fit once he finds out what MY computer is named. Heehee. :) ++ ++ "Well Samwise: What do you think of the elves now?" ||\ /|| --fbaggins@mid.earth.com || v ||ichael Martinez (mmartin@basis.com) ++ ++------------------------------------------------------ Path: vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!w-hsu From: w-hsu@ai.uiuc.edu (William Hsu) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Michael's Beard Date: 17 Dec 1996 21:16:24 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana Lines: 57 Message-ID: <5972j8$rvh@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> References: <32938530.2CF9@venus.net> <19961122203600.PAA07056@ladder01.news.aol.com> <32974069.3E81@concentric.net> <57cdgv$pg_002@thepope.basis.com> <329A2855.37A2@concentric.net> <329F4D93.6B8F@concentric.net> <32a48192.4781858@news.vistec.net> <58dbmp$ht8@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32AAE504.A15@concentric.com> <32aeea2b.1846681@news.vist <32AFD55D.87A@mrent.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: earhart.ai.uiuc.edu >Lalaith wrote: >> >> Hm - I think I should put my ring into the fire for a moment. It might >> tell me something... >> >Wouldnt that make your eyes water? ``And to Frodo's surprise, Martinez suddenly hurled the ring into the fire. Instantly Frodo became very alarmed, and, snatching the tongs from beside the fireplace, he pulled the ring out of the fire. Martinez sat calmly and said, ``Do not worry, it is unharmed.'' After a few minutes he picked the ring up and examined it. ``It is as I suspected. Look at it closely,'' he said, giving it to Frodo. To Frodo's surprise, the ring was quite cool to the touch, and it seemed to be heavier than before. At first [1] he could not see anything, but then on the inner edge of the central hole he saw an inscription; an inscription finer than anything he had ever seen before. The words shone piercingly bright, and yet remote, as if out of a great depth... `'I cannot understand the fiery letters,'' Frodo said. `'No,'' Martinez replied, `'but I can.'' ``The letters are Adunaic, of an ancient mode, but the language is that of Black Numenorean, which I will not utter here. Translated, it reads: One Mouth to fool them all, One Mouth to spite them, One Mouth to mock them all And in the Darkness bite them. [1] D'Oh! I said ``first'' again... ;-) Aure entuluva, Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ | "I have the most ill-regulated memory. It William H. Hsu | does those things which it ought not to do Formerly hsu@cs.jhu.edu | and leaves undone the things it ought to Now bhsu@cs.uiuc.edu | have done. But it has not yet gone on Department of Computer Science | strike altogether." University of Illinois at U-C | | -Dorothy L. Sayers, /Gaudy Night/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> Visit the ANN-CBT Home Page at http://www-kbs.ai.uiuc.edu/ANN-CBT <<< ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> See also the KBS Group Home Page at http://www-kbs.ai.uiuc.edu <<<<< ------------------------------------------------------------------------------